Another magic shop
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Clonk, if you didn't know that there used to be high level spells, you would just think that the higher level spells were better versions of these nerfed spells. That is exactly what we have now between various versions of missile and orb storm.
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On the other hand, I suggested some kind of "Adventurer's Guild" that would have advanced spells and weapons in a special area of Bishopia, much like the thief guild.
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On the other hand, I suggested some kind of "Adventurer's Guild" that would have advanced spells and weapons in a special area of Bishopia, much like the thief guild.
- Zefz
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I made a list of the spells that can be bought (as of 2.8.0) in the various shops in Egoboo.
The following spells can be bought in Zippy town:
So you see, half of the spells sold there are attack spells, where most range from low-medium (excluding fireball and storms).
Bishopia:
Zambini has surprisingly few high level spells. In addition two-thirds seem to be offensive spells!
The following spells can be bought in Zippy town:
Code: Select all
NAME TYPE LEVEL
Ice Ray Attack Low
Unseen Utility High
Morph Utility Low
Sword Wall Attack/Defence Medium
Storms Attack High
Rot Attack Medium
Protect Defence Low
Missile Attack Low
Fireball Attack High
Levitate Utility Medium
Light Utility Low
Frost Blast Attack Medium
So you see, half of the spells sold there are attack spells, where most range from low-medium (excluding fireball and storms).
Bishopia:
Code: Select all
NAME TYPE LEVEL
Teleport Utility High
Bridge Utility Medium
Death Cloud Attack Medium
Size Attack Low
Meteor Attack High
Whirlwind Attack Low
Ice Ray Attack Low
Icicles Attack Low
Orbstorm Attack High
Battle Ward Defence Medium
Zambini has surprisingly few high level spells. In addition two-thirds seem to be offensive spells!
bgbirdsey wrote:Clonk, if you didn't know that there used to be high level spells, you would just think that the higher level spells were better versions of these nerfed spells. That is exactly what we have now between various versions of missile and orb storm.
This doesn't change the fact that having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided.
octagon wrote:I've never seen Ice Ray, Frost Blast and Sword Wall there. In which version does the Zippy shop contain them?
If I'm not mistaken, Sword Wall has always been there.
bgbirdsey wrote:Clonkinator wrote:having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided
This may be your opinion, but it is a staple in all fantasy RPGs.
And this is the exact reason why it should be avoided. Just because it is what all other games do, Egoboo should not do the same - after all, Egoboo is its own unique game, not just any random fantasy RPG. There is no rule that says a game's magic cannot work unless all spells have at least three variants of themselves that do the same just with different intensity, is there?
I also think that essentially duplicating a spell multiple times and always just changing a few parameters is a very cheap, uncreative way to make the player think the game offers a wide variety of different spells, when in all actuality, it does not.
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And this is the exact reason why it should be avoided.
This is a specious argument. The reason that other games do it is because it fulfills a need in the game, and limits that amount of creativity and work necessary to get the game to market.
If you want to come up with a whole load of low level spells yourself, or organize a team to do so, then your argument might have some merit. If no one wants to put the work into it, then nerfing higher level spells is really the only option.
bgbirdsey wrote:Clonkinator wrote:having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided
This may be your opinion, but it is a staple in all fantasy RPGs.
If you consider this to be necessary... well, ok. But I still think that they must be modified at least a bit in habit and function to keep the game interesting. Like Clonkinator, I would prefer to have many different spells... but there should be some varieties of the most common spells as well. Having many morph and summon varieties is not bad, but a great thing... and if the idea of divine, natural, arcane and necromantic spells (from the "super spells" thread) gets applied, there should be various different missile versions... (maybe) a divine one (extremely useful for healing), a natural one (called "arbor spheres" or water bubbles!?), the normal (arcane) one (we all know it) and an eeeeevil one with skulls.
Last edited by octagon on Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bgbirdsey wrote:And this is the exact reason why it should be avoided.
This is a specious argument. The reason that other games do it is because it fulfills a need in the game, and limits that amount of creativity and work necessary to get the game to market.
The thing is, there is no market we could bring Egoboo to. Egoboo is free, so we essentially have all time in the world to come up with new spells.
bgbirdsey wrote:If you want to come up with a whole load of low level spells yourself, or organize a team to do so, then your argument might have some merit. If no one wants to put the work into it, then nerfing higher level spells is really the only option.
If the game worked on my PC, I would have created new items, modules and maybe spells long ago already. The thing is, it does not.
Also, we already have a nice selection of spells. Of course more well-done spells is always a good thing, but I don't think we're in dire need of new spells right now; at least not enough to warrant a sudden copy-paste frenzy of all spells in the game.
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Clonkinator wrote:The thing is, there is no market we could bring Egoboo to. Egoboo is free, so we essentially have all time in the world to come up with new spells.
This is irrelevant to the original discussion.
Coming up with constructive and positive ways out of the "problem" (in this case the felt need for more low level spells) is so much more useful than telling others what not to do.
Positive ideas and action are what have gotten the game this far. Please contribute in that spirit.
bgbirdsey wrote:Clonkinator wrote:The thing is, there is no market we could bring Egoboo to. Egoboo is free, so we essentially have all time in the world to come up with new spells.
This is irrelevant to the original discussion.
It is not. You said that other games do it to save time in order to get the game to the "market", but since we're not bringing the game to any kind of "market", why would we need to do the same?
bgbirdsey wrote:Coming up with constructive and positive ways out of the "problem" (in this case the felt need for more low level spells) is so much more useful than telling others what not to do.
Positive ideas and action are what have gotten the game this far. Please contribute in that spirit.
I was merely arguing against simply copy-pasting spells, changing a few parameters about them and call it a day, which you seemed to be very happy with. I'm not arguing because arguing is so much fun, but because I think that this spell duplication thing would subtract a lot from the fun and the uniqueness of Egoboo. If I'm not allowed to argue against your deciscions, just say so and I will no longer bother with it.
Clonkinator wrote:If I'm not allowed to argue against your deciscions, just say so and I will no longer bother with it.
Not actually going to argue anything or pick sides right now, I just wanted to point out that I've observed for a while now that Clonks has a way of indirectly antagonizing people he's arguing with, usually as seen above. It's a great thing to use when you want to get out of trouble or piss off authority, I would know best, but it's pretty useless and self defeating if you're trying to have a proper debate.
That is all, have fun.
I agree with Clonks's point about the negative influcence those spells could have towards the game's flavour, but I think that those modified versions could be fun if they are not added for balancing issues or so but just as a little gimmick used by enemies or found as a unique spellbook, wand or artifact somewhere in a dungeon - like green "surprise missiles" inflicting random status effects or a book thst seems to be a book of unlock but locks doors instead... we even already have such a thing: the Paladin's version of the Holy Touch...
But these gimmicks must stay rare to prevent them from becoming nasty.
But these gimmicks must stay rare to prevent them from becoming nasty.