Another magic shop

Have an idea or great plots for Egoboo? Post them here!

Moderator: Developers

Do we need another magic shop?

Yes, it would be necessary
2
25%
It could be kind of useful
5
63%
No way! The existing magic shops are enough
1
13%
No one needs any kind of spell shop
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 8

bgbirdsey
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:22 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by bgbirdsey »

Clonk, if you didn't know that there used to be high level spells, you would just think that the higher level spells were better versions of these nerfed spells. That is exactly what we have now between various versions of missile and orb storm.

--------------------------

On the other hand, I suggested some kind of "Adventurer's Guild" that would have advanced spells and weapons in a special area of Bishopia, much like the thief guild.
User avatar
Zefz
Squirrel Knight (Administrator)
Squirrel Knight (Administrator)
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:27 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by Zefz »

I made a list of the spells that can be bought (as of 2.8.0) in the various shops in Egoboo.

The following spells can be bought in Zippy town:

Code: Select all

NAME               TYPE                  LEVEL
Ice Ray            Attack                Low
Unseen             Utility               High
Morph              Utility               Low
Sword Wall         Attack/Defence        Medium
Storms             Attack                High
Rot                Attack                Medium
Protect            Defence               Low
Missile            Attack                Low
Fireball           Attack                High
Levitate           Utility               Medium
Light              Utility               Low
Frost Blast        Attack                Medium

So you see, half of the spells sold there are attack spells, where most range from low-medium (excluding fireball and storms).

Bishopia:

Code: Select all

NAME               TYPE                  LEVEL
Teleport           Utility               High
Bridge             Utility               Medium
Death Cloud        Attack                Medium
Size               Attack                Low
Meteor             Attack                High
Whirlwind          Attack                Low
Ice Ray            Attack                Low
Icicles            Attack                Low
Orbstorm           Attack                High
Battle Ward        Defence               Medium

Zambini has surprisingly few high level spells. In addition two-thirds seem to be offensive spells!
User avatar
octagon
Darkshine Knight (Extremist fanatic)
Darkshine Knight (Extremist fanatic)
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:07 pm

Post by octagon »

I've never seen Ice Ray, Frost Blast and Sword Wall there. In which version does the Zippy shop contain them?
User avatar
Zefz
Squirrel Knight (Administrator)
Squirrel Knight (Administrator)
Posts: 3820
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:27 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by Zefz »

The upcoming 2.8.0 as mentioned in my post.
User avatar
Shade
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Posts: 7349
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Gensokyo

Post by Shade »

bgbirdsey wrote:Clonk, if you didn't know that there used to be high level spells, you would just think that the higher level spells were better versions of these nerfed spells. That is exactly what we have now between various versions of missile and orb storm.

This doesn't change the fact that having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided.

octagon wrote:I've never seen Ice Ray, Frost Blast and Sword Wall there. In which version does the Zippy shop contain them?

If I'm not mistaken, Sword Wall has always been there.
bgbirdsey
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:22 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by bgbirdsey »

Clonkinator wrote:having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided


This may be your opinion, but it is a staple in all fantasy RPGs.
User avatar
Shade
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Posts: 7349
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Gensokyo

Post by Shade »

bgbirdsey wrote:
Clonkinator wrote:having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided


This may be your opinion, but it is a staple in all fantasy RPGs.

And this is the exact reason why it should be avoided. Just because it is what all other games do, Egoboo should not do the same - after all, Egoboo is its own unique game, not just any random fantasy RPG. There is no rule that says a game's magic cannot work unless all spells have at least three variants of themselves that do the same just with different intensity, is there?
I also think that essentially duplicating a spell multiple times and always just changing a few parameters is a very cheap, uncreative way to make the player think the game offers a wide variety of different spells, when in all actuality, it does not.
bgbirdsey
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:22 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by bgbirdsey »

And this is the exact reason why it should be avoided.


This is a specious argument. The reason that other games do it is because it fulfills a need in the game, and limits that amount of creativity and work necessary to get the game to market.

If you want to come up with a whole load of low level spells yourself, or organize a team to do so, then your argument might have some merit. If no one wants to put the work into it, then nerfing higher level spells is really the only option.
User avatar
octagon
Darkshine Knight (Extremist fanatic)
Darkshine Knight (Extremist fanatic)
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:07 pm

Post by octagon »

bgbirdsey wrote:
Clonkinator wrote:having multiple spells that essentially do the same should be avoided

This may be your opinion, but it is a staple in all fantasy RPGs.

If you consider this to be necessary... well, ok. But I still think that they must be modified at least a bit in habit and function to keep the game interesting. Like Clonkinator, I would prefer to have many different spells... but there should be some varieties of the most common spells as well. Having many morph and summon varieties is not bad, but a great thing... and if the idea of divine, natural, arcane and necromantic spells (from the "super spells" thread) gets applied, there should be various different missile versions... (maybe) a divine one (extremely useful for healing), a natural one (called "arbor spheres" or water bubbles!?), the normal (arcane) one (we all know it) and an eeeeevil one with skulls.
Last edited by octagon on Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bgbirdsey
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:22 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by bgbirdsey »

That would be the ideal, but there is limited time to spend on creating/modding spells.
User avatar
Shade
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Posts: 7349
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Gensokyo

Post by Shade »

bgbirdsey wrote:
And this is the exact reason why it should be avoided.


This is a specious argument. The reason that other games do it is because it fulfills a need in the game, and limits that amount of creativity and work necessary to get the game to market.

The thing is, there is no market we could bring Egoboo to. Egoboo is free, so we essentially have all time in the world to come up with new spells.

bgbirdsey wrote:If you want to come up with a whole load of low level spells yourself, or organize a team to do so, then your argument might have some merit. If no one wants to put the work into it, then nerfing higher level spells is really the only option.

If the game worked on my PC, I would have created new items, modules and maybe spells long ago already. The thing is, it does not.
Also, we already have a nice selection of spells. Of course more well-done spells is always a good thing, but I don't think we're in dire need of new spells right now; at least not enough to warrant a sudden copy-paste frenzy of all spells in the game.
bgbirdsey
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
{]-[0{0|307 (Developer)
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:22 am
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by bgbirdsey »

Clonkinator wrote:The thing is, there is no market we could bring Egoboo to. Egoboo is free, so we essentially have all time in the world to come up with new spells.


This is irrelevant to the original discussion.

Coming up with constructive and positive ways out of the "problem" (in this case the felt need for more low level spells) is so much more useful than telling others what not to do.

Positive ideas and action are what have gotten the game this far. Please contribute in that spirit.
User avatar
Shade
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Potion Mimic (Senior Member)
Posts: 7349
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Gensokyo

Post by Shade »

bgbirdsey wrote:
Clonkinator wrote:The thing is, there is no market we could bring Egoboo to. Egoboo is free, so we essentially have all time in the world to come up with new spells.


This is irrelevant to the original discussion.

It is not. You said that other games do it to save time in order to get the game to the "market", but since we're not bringing the game to any kind of "market", why would we need to do the same?

bgbirdsey wrote:Coming up with constructive and positive ways out of the "problem" (in this case the felt need for more low level spells) is so much more useful than telling others what not to do.

Positive ideas and action are what have gotten the game this far. Please contribute in that spirit.

I was merely arguing against simply copy-pasting spells, changing a few parameters about them and call it a day, which you seemed to be very happy with. I'm not arguing because arguing is so much fun, but because I think that this spell duplication thing would subtract a lot from the fun and the uniqueness of Egoboo. If I'm not allowed to argue against your deciscions, just say so and I will no longer bother with it.
Cimeries
Lumberjack (Developer)
Lumberjack (Developer)
Posts: 7720
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:56 am

Post by Cimeries »

Clonkinator wrote:If I'm not allowed to argue against your deciscions, just say so and I will no longer bother with it.

Not actually going to argue anything or pick sides right now, I just wanted to point out that I've observed for a while now that Clonks has a way of indirectly antagonizing people he's arguing with, usually as seen above. It's a great thing to use when you want to get out of trouble or piss off authority, I would know best, but it's pretty useless and self defeating if you're trying to have a proper debate.
That is all, have fun. :mrgreen:
:wink:
User avatar
octagon
Darkshine Knight (Extremist fanatic)
Darkshine Knight (Extremist fanatic)
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:07 pm

Post by octagon »

I agree with Clonks's point about the negative influcence those spells could have towards the game's flavour, but I think that those modified versions could be fun if they are not added for balancing issues or so but just as a little gimmick used by enemies or found as a unique spellbook, wand or artifact somewhere in a dungeon - like green "surprise missiles" inflicting random status effects or a book thst seems to be a book of unlock but locks doors instead... we even already have such a thing: the Paladin's version of the Holy Touch...
But these gimmicks must stay rare to prevent them from becoming nasty.
Post Reply